Pure Nuff Stuff

Yes I know, there are probably more exciting things I could be doing with my Sundays, but I am outing myself as a saddo; worst of all, I'm enjoying it! I've updated our links page with some useful and I hope, interesting, links that we use a fair bit. Do let me know of any other good research sites you use and I'll post them too.

posted by Emily @ 13:06

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Saturday 22nd November 2008

Preservative Free

I appreciate what you are saying about the products being tested shortly after being made, but that still leaves the issue of germ contamination after we start using them. Your suggestion trying oils instead of creams is good, but I personally found oils a little too heavy and would prefer sticking to lotions and creams. It is a difficult subject, i am not arguing about that. Have you had safety testing done on products which have been used for a short while to see if they are still germ free for a couple of months after opening?

posted by BG @ 12:47

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Saturday 22nd November 2008

Proving the hypothesis!

This is a rationale hypothesis to put forward given your concerns. However, from an experimental prespective how would this experiment be done - it would be quite complicated. First a negative control would be needed, that is, a PNS product that is not used (unopened straight off the production line) and kept under the same conditions as the one actually being used by the subject - temperature, light etc. This would be required for each person in the study. A positive control would be required - one that has been innoculated with known stains of microbes to assess their growth potential in the PNS product. Then each person would require a working sample to apply. After a particular time point, each PNS sample would be tested and compared for microbial growth with the positive and negative controls. Then if you were going to be really strict with your experimental protocol you would have a sample of your PNS product which is normally preservative free but this time containing the same preservative(s) as the other preservative containing brands you would also need to compare it to - so in theory - for the experimetal results to be valid any microbial growth observed in the preservative containing PNS product should be similar to that of the brand containing the same preservative. OK - all of this would be feasible so far but what about the way different people use their toiletries? For example, I never dip my fingers into a lotion or cream (even before I was converted to chemical free products) - I always use a cotton bud to take out what I need and then make sure the lid is closed properly. Now lets go to the other extreme - the person who has just been to the toilet and not washed their hands and sticks their finger into the lotion and leaves the lid off. Also, consider the state of cleanliness in different peoples houses - one bathroom may be full of fungal spores floating around whereas another may only contain a minimal level. So even if such experiments were carried out under rigorous conditions with all taking part complying to a strict protocol it would still be very difficult to interpret the results. If anyone has an easier way to solve this problem then I'd like to hear from you.

posted by PNS fan @ 20:48

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Sunday 23rd November 2008

It was just a question

I was only wondering if such testing has been done or even considered, on a product kept under normal conditions (cool, dry, no heat or sunlight) and used by an averagely 'clean' person. Surely such testing would not require a preserved product used under the same conditions for comparisson. I would imagine labs that do that kind of testing will have maximum allowed germ levels to compare a sample against, for safety reasons, not actual quantity of bacteria in a preservative free vs a preserved product. The other thing that springs to mind is - the ingredients themselves aren't exactly germ free, are they? For example, shea and cocoa butter are produced in Africa, not under the strictest of hygene conditions. Once that or another ingredient is mixed in with others and water, germs start to grow, no? This was the point I was trying to make - a product may well be made in a clean place and filled in clean jars, but how germ-free is it, really, and how long does that last? I personally find cotton buds or spatulas a bit pointless, because how do you know exactly how much cream you would need, you may need to dip it in a second times, but once you've removed the first lot of product from the cotton bud, it isn't exactly clean then, is it? Not that much different than 'clean' fingers...

posted by BG @ 13:29

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Sunday 23rd November 2008

...and a question you have every right to ask

Well, I would disagree with you on the requirements of a product containing a preservative as a control comparison because your concern is that a lack of preservatives in such products as the PNS brand may lead to excessive microbial growth. Therefore, it would need to be proved that if excessive microbial growth was found in PNS products then the addition of a preservative to such products would prevent this growth from occuring. Yes, labs would have allowed margins of contamination when testing products but it all depends on the question that you are asking and the subsequent experimental hypothesis that is postulated - yours being that - the lack of preservatives in PNS products may lead to excessive microbial growth when compared to a product that contains preservatives. Therefore, an accurately designed experiment to prove whether this hypothesis is correct or not would be to compare a standard PNS product against a PNS product with a preservative. Regarding cotton buds, it is a fine art of knowing exactly how much you need - with practice you soon learn. However, if you find that you haven't got enough cream/lotion on your cotton bud then just use another one - problem solved. As for the source of the shea and cocoa butter being its reason for being contaminated, I am not at liberty to comment upon this issue as I have no knowledge of where/how it is processed. Unfortunately, I am only a humble research scientist with a passion for stringent experimental design. Maybe one of the other bloggers maybe able to answer that one for you. I think its great that you express your concerns as it is only through this sort of debate that these issues will be highlighted and hopefully chemical free products will become the norm of the future.

posted by PNS fan @ 14:39

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Monday 24th November 2008

My two-pennorth...

Thanks very much to PNS Fan, that was a great explanation of just how difficult it is to create tests for every eventuality. We do take this issue very seriously, as you'd expect, but we need to be pragmatic too. So we have one test done on new batches and another done after 6 months to ensure quality is preserved. It's great to see such lively debate though, that's how we all learn.

Just to make a wee point about the quality of the base materials when they get to us, they are indeed imported from Africa, but they're processed for us under very stringent conditions in a laboratory in England. We get a chemical data safety sheet with every batch of the 30 odd oils we get in and that details the composition, physical & chemical properties, stability & reactivity, toxicological & ecological information, saponification value and microbial activity in each and every batch. So we can confirm that the oils are indeed very clean by the time they get to us.

It's sensible to use a spatula or cotton bud when handling any natural creams, in the same way you wouldn't use a dirty knife to spread jam on your toast, it really doesn't take long to get the hang of how much you need.

And finally BG, if at the end of all this you still have concerns but haven't yet got to grips with raw oils, have you considered moisturising with them at night rather than in the morning? Most people who find oils a bit heavy find that this gets around that very well indeed.

posted by Emily @ 16:37

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Thursday 27th November 2008

Raw oils

Yes, I have tried them and I am not disputing their moisturising qualities at all. It's just I have bad experience with a face cream I purchased from Akamuti 2 years ago, that was pure oils, and although my face loved it, after a couple of months I had to buy a new set of sheets, my pillow case smelled of old oil. And the brief period of using oils to moisturise my legs resulting in throwing away 2 pairs of perfectly good but smelly jeans. In any case, I do love my products clean of chemicals and so far I've had no issues with the natural creams and lotions I've used so far. I guess it was the article on the Beauty Brains website that stirred the nasty thoughts in my head.

posted by BG @ 11:02

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Thursday 27th November 2008

Oh how strange

I use oils on my face (getting older now so I'm paying a bit more attention to skin that I did as a nipper) and haven't ever come across that problem. How much do you use?

And I can quite understand that you got a bit worried, there's a lot of scaremongering about, in every industry I suppose, but in this one particularly I think. So the research you're doing is really important, it will help you spot the myths and sort out the science behind them, but there's no easy way to do it, you just have to get all the information you can from as many sources as you can and make your own mind up. Saying that gangrene is present in a cream is very scary, but they forgot to mention that it's an airborne disease (usually caused by Strep or Staph, the same bacteria that cause strep throat for example), so it's present around us a lot more than we'd like the think about.

Your skin is completely covered in bacteria, the numbers of them per square inch would make you cringe if you thought about it too much, but we seem to live in a culture now that's painted all bacteria black. We (well some people) spray our homes in anti-bac agents without a thought as to what damage we're doing to our bodies by inhaling them and by stopping our own immune systems doing thier jobs. But not all bacteria are bad for us, those suffering with diabetes or suppressed immune systems do have other considerations, but normal healthy individuals do more harm to themselves in my opinion by sanitising every surface they contact. I'm not saying that we should all roll around in pig muck at every opportunity to give our immune systems a good old work-out, but I hope you can see where I'm going with this. The presence of some bacteria does not equal certain death, any more than the lack of it equals complete safety.

So, back to you and your skin, have you tried the Massage Bars? They leave enough pure oil on your skin to moisturise, but not enough for you to be sticking to your pillow or jeans and leaving an unpleasant oil slick.

posted by Emily @ 15:47

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Thursday 27th November 2008

How much

I wouldn't say I was slapping the cream on, just a teeny bit to feel I've put something on and because I read in bed at night I thought that half an hour or so will give the oils chance to soak in. Clearly they didn't. Anyhow, I seem to prefer lighter textured creams and if the only way to make them is to dilute them with water, I should be prepared to take a 'bacterial exposure' chance ;-)

posted by BG @ 16:02

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Monday 24th November 2008

Spots

Does it help to say that I have now been using PNS products on my face for 18 months now and I would say I am suffering significantly less outbreaks. I have never been very spotty but they really are a rarity nowadays!

posted by Heleng @ 10:42

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Monday 24th November 2008

It's a valid point

In the six years we've been trading (and getting samples tested at various stages in thier life-cycle) we've had no major concerns reported back to us. So if it helps and it's working for you, stick with it :)

posted by Emily @ 16:03

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Thursday 20th November 2008

Hi BG

No offence taken - good to see some lively debate going on!

posted by PNS fan @ 19:29

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Thursday 20th November 2008

Not on purpose, but still worried about safety

I am sorry if me picking the PNS fan name has caused an upset to someone. I don't usually make notes of the authors and really, it wasn't done on purpose. Thank you for the explanation regarding the preservatives. Although a few references on the net suggest that it simply isn't safe using skincare products without preservatives because if there is water (even purified) in a product, bacteria will grow no matter how clean your fingers are. Apparently even if you don't see anything wrong with a cream for example, such as mold, bugs can still be there and multiplying. As the Beauty Brains explained preservatives are being used not only to extend the shelf life, but to prevent contamination once a person begins using the product which can take 3-6 months. As I said in the first post, i like the fact that your products don't contain any chemicals, but it still concerns me if preservative free skin care made by hand in a workshop (as opposed to a sterile lab environment) can really be germ free.

posted by BG (hopefully noone else using it) @ 18:31

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Thursday 20th November 2008

Hi again BG :)

Thanks for the name change, it will make the original PNS Fan much more comfortable and as I replied to that poster, I had assumed it was an honest mistake, so no harm done.

It's a fascinating subject and people do have different views, but that's the whole point about being able to understand what goes into skincare products. I mentioned before that we get our products tested regularly, so that puts our minds very much at rest about thier safety. We prefer not to use parabens as even the industry experts are still unable to agree on thier relative safety. When you bear in mind that these are the same experts that have approved the use of formaldeyde in skincare for example (just one in a very long list of things I don't like the idea of bathing myself in) then I reserve the right to avoid them until proof positive is put before me.

But this whole process is about choice, if you still have concerns, then perhaps you might consider using oils to moisturise with? We provide them scented or plain, items in the DIY range such as base oils, raw shea butter and coconut oil, not forgetting products like Shea Souffle or the Massage Bars - none of which have water in.

posted by Emily @ 19:08

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Thursday 20th November 2008

Imposter!

Dear Emily, I am quite concerned about the article that has been written below. It has not been written by real the PNS Fan i.e. myself, who has been contributing to your blog for a long time now. I accept that they have a right to ask questions but I can assure you this has nothing to do with me. It would help if the blogger in question chose a different alias. I hope this is a genuine mistake and not an attempt to mess up your blog.

posted by The Real PNS Fan @ 12:11

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Thursday 20th November 2008

Hi there (to the real) PNS Fan

Thanks for letting us all know, I've mentioned to that poster that it's a good idea to use another name in future - but in the meantime your good name is secure (it's not the kind of thing you normally have to think about is it?).

I'm sure it was an honest mistake though, and as you quite rightly say, everyone has a right to question anything, it's just nice when it's done transparently, eh?

posted by Emily @ 17:04

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Thursday 20th November 2008

Eyeliner

Still cannot add comments to the end of messages by the way. I am pretty well practised using liquid eyeliner as I used it A LOT as a teenager (fortunately I grew out of that look!) but if you smudge it out then it really does not matter if it is not completely straight. As with many things upon growing up I discovered less is most definatley more!

posted by Heleng @ 11:46

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Thursday 20th November 2008

ooo yes indeed you're so right about that

Happily my days of black eyeliner a la Siousxie and the Banshees are long behind me too :)

And I shall pass on your problem about posting in the string to our web bods, I did think that had been fixed - sorry. We do have paragraph breaks now though, that's an improvement (for my old eyes anyway).

posted by Emily @ 16:26

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Thursday 20th November 2008

Links sorted

Hurrah...now the "stories" will make sense!

posted by Helen G @ 18:27

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Thursday 20th November 2008

Interesting Comment re: Parabens on one of the links

Well, I clicked on one of the links featured on the links page, the Beauty Brains one, and stumbled on a very interesting article about parabens, but it was mostly about preservatives in skin care. Presumably you think preservative free skincare is the way to go, and I like my products without any chemical rubbish in them, but are you not worried about all the bugs that can be present in the products? They were talking gangrene there, and other nasty infections. Please put my mind at rest!

posted by PNS Fan @ 09:02

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Thursday 20th November 2008

Hi there, whoever you are...

I wondered when someone would pick up on that one :) and like I said, we don't agree with everything they say on that site, but it's a useful resource nonetheless.

No, we don't agree that parabens are the only (or even the safest) way to control microbial activity. Very often when people make references to this type of instance it turns out that the cream in question was home made with tap water for example, which we of course don't do. If you keep your base materials clean, your workshop spotless and control exactly what goes into a cream, it ends up clean. And we get ours independantly tested on a regular basis to make absolutely sure of that, that's just the responsible thing to do.

Parabens will extend the life of a cream, yes, that's why the chemists who work for these large companies - who always have a keen eye on the bottom line remember - are so in favour of them. But if a clean cream is used quickly by a person who has more than a passing relationship with soap, then it will not become a hive of bacteria.

Finally, you're very welcome here of course, but having read PNS Fan's comment above, it might be a nice idea if you posted under another name in future, it helps to avoid confusion and upset to others who have posted here for a while.

posted by Emily @ 14:25

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Tuesday 18th November 2008

Eyeliner

I use a powder mixed with water applied with a tiny brush and blended using a smudger. I always found that the traditional pens ended up on my cheeks after a few hours but with this method I am having better luck. Mascara is a bigger problem as mentioned ages ago!! There are a few options online but I have not yet made the jump!

posted by Heleng @ 19:23

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Wednesday 19th November 2008

Oh nice idea

I've used our old eyeshadows a bit like that, minerals lend themselves really well to that sort of thing, but it might be my unsteady hand that made it look a touch, amateur shall we say :) Did you have to practice that method a lot before you got it right ?

PR: wait... I: wait... L: wait... LD: wait... I: wait... wait... C: wait... SD: wait...

posted by Emily @ 11:09

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Monday 17th November 2008

hi, am new to you...just received first order..absolutely love it all... looking for vegan waterproof eyeliner /gel....brown.. am looking forward to your cosmetics returning..will there be anything like this...? keep up yr fantastic work... regards cj

posted by cj herbert @ 12:26

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Tuesday 18th November 2008

Thanks cj and welcome :)

Glad you like your stuff and we're looking to get the makeups back as soon as we've stopped reeling from the demand for all the rest of the new ranges we've just launched. We've still got a few more new products to get launched yet (plus some fab new gifts) but as soon as that's done then yes, we'll get on with the foundations, blushers and eye colours that we've been developing. Eyeliner is a tricky one (especially a vegan one - beeswax is the best carrier that will allow the product to move smoothly out of a pencil really) but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. Getting it waterproof might be a bit of a stretch though, hard to do that naturally I reckon. Cheers for the ideas though, I'll do a bit of research.

posted by Emily @ 14:12

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2010/06/24 - Pure Nuff Pirate Punch
2010/06/03 - Lafe's deodorants - why our stock is currently on sale
2010/05/07 - Are you a bit bored?
2010/04/23 - Ethical Consumer Magazine BEST BUY
2010/04/14 - Things we liked at the Natural & Organics Show last weekend
2010/03/23 - Heaps of things....
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2010/02/17 - Sunscreen Lotion, why it's not on the site any longer
2010/02/11 - Our Rowing Boys have made it half way!
2010/01/18 - Good news for us geeks...
2010/01/04 - Happy New Year
2009/12/22 - Happy Christmas to you ALL
2009/12/03 - PNS and Makeup
2009/11/11 - Our rowing boys are close to going - wish them luck!
2009/11/03 - Facebook, we now have a page
2009/10/29 - Don't throw away pumpkin pieces
2009/10/24 - Are you ready for the clock to go back yet? No? We're not either....
2009/09/21 - I've been reading again
2009/09/10 - MEEP! We're getting excited!
2009/09/09 - Autumn is in the air here
2009/09/01 - Magazines
2009/08/21 - Home pedicures, like a day at a spa, but without the weight loss in the pocket...
2009/08/20 - It's been a while again, holidays and all that
2009/08/04 - PNS and the Fish Mish
2009/07/20 - Sorry it's been a touch quiet on the blog front...
2009/07/13 - We have a new brochure
2009/07/06 - Our interests are hitting the mainstream press, well I never...
2009/06/24 - We've had fun, very, very silly fun
2009/06/19 - We have produced a TON of this beautiful stuff this year :)
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2009/06/05 - I've been having a clear out today
2009/06/03 - Last Friday Kevin arrived, today we rescued Steven Seagull
2009/06/01 - Glamour and more glamour
2009/05/29 - We have a new member of the PNS team
2009/05/28 - Back from Gardening Leave
2009/05/22 - How We Are!!!!!!!!!!!
2009/05/14 - Essential Oils
2009/05/13 - PNS perfumes, possibly
2009/05/06 - We now have a "Home" section on the site
2009/04/27 - "She smells of lemons!"
2009/04/21 - What are your thoughts on natural deodorants?
2009/04/07 - We've just come back from the Natural & Organic Exhibition at Olympia
2009/03/30 - Botanicals - Do you think it's safe to Grow Your Own Drugs like the telly programme says?
2009/03/26 - Our Big Announcement - PNS has won a Natural Health Magazine Award
2009/03/26 - Our Big Announcement - PNS has won a Natural Health Magazine Award
2009/03/18 - The Kasbah Box
2009/03/13 - We've made some big changes in the soaps
2009/03/10 - Grow your own drugs - did you see that on telly last night?
2009/03/05 - If you've ever had trouble getting to sleep, read this.
2009/03/02 - A day in the life of a whiteboard....
2009/02/23 - Twitter, we have succumbed
2009/02/18 - Goodness, it's been a while
2009/02/10 - Mobile phones, I'm now properly scared
2009/02/05 - Good reference books on the subject of vile chemicals in toiletries
2009/01/29 - Hormone disrupting
2009/01/22 - That didn't take long....
2009/01/05 - Happy New Year!!!
2008/12/23 - Happy Christmas to everyone
2008/12/19 - Quick hello and apologies for recent quietness
2008/12/10 - Exfoliation. Did anyone see Horizon last night?
2008/12/02 - We're doing our elf impressions now
2008/11/27 - Two local men doing a trans-Atlantic row
2008/11/25 - Our mums approve
2008/11/20 - Green is now mainstream - it's official
2008/11/16 - The links page has been updated
2008/11/11 - Back to the natural cleaning discussion again
2008/11/04 - So what do you think of the new site please?
2008/10/24 - Are you ever tempted to get false nails put on?
2008/10/22 - Meep! We just had a famous person in the shop, we're all starstruck
2008/10/20 - Borax a RESOUNDING success - I have finally banished bleach from the house forever!!
2008/10/09 - Onward and upward now, an explanation of why we hate phthalates
2008/10/07 - We're a bit sad at the moment
2008/09/29 - All this has got me thinking again...
2008/09/16 - Another question
2008/09/10 - I feel like Jesse from the Fast Show,
2008/09/04 - Conditioner, Creams and Christmas
2008/08/29 - So, what about nail varnish then?
2008/08/23 - I am not ignoring the blog, I promise
2008/08/12 - Update on the Washing Question
2008/08/04 - Another washing question
2008/07/31 - Green Fatigue
2008/07/28 - What do you use to wash your clothes with?
2008/07/16 - Natural Toothpastes
2008/07/15 - We're just ordering some new brushes and scrubby things
2008/07/07 - Oh we love summer
2008/06/26 - We have sand in our toes and ice cream on our faces
2008/06/25 - I'm all alone :(
2008/06/20 - Friday and we're shattered
2008/06/16 - A Blip
2008/06/02 - Well THAT was fun!!
2008/05/28 - Well how exciting....
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2008/05/12 - Organic companies finding thier teeth
2008/05/08 - Channel 4 - Dispatches, The truth about Beauty Creams I think the programme's called
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2008/04/25 - Baby Wipes
2008/04/22 - Tuesday and we have our brains back again
2008/04/21 - Mondayitis
2008/04/14 - An exciting phase
2008/04/08 - Hello and Welcome, oh, and spots