Pure Nuff Stuff

I've opened up this new thread so we can have a bit of a debate about this, there's something to be said on both sides though. I like the idea of the programme, it's taking us back to knowledge that we've forgotten.

I say this all the time in the shop here, my nan used to make hand cream, she was quite locally famous for it in years gone by, her sister used to make soap and both of them used to barter for other goods with these home made items (wartime and all that). It's only in the last 50 years that we've relied on other people to make things for us, we used to make all these products ourselves, creams, toothpastes, cleaning products, even makeup (my mum still tells tales of using soot from the chimney as eyeshadow and an eye pencil to draw stocking lines up the back of her legs). We used to know what herbs were useful to us - and how to prepare them - I like that kind of self reliance to be honest.

Before we get completely confused here though, I'm not for a moment suggesting that we all start to self-diagnose illnesses and stop going to the doctor altogether. That's just daft. But if you've had a proper diagnosis, then I really am open to the idea of treating a problem - let's use the example of dandruff - a number of ways. The doctor might well prescribe something but if you choose to try to make your own shampoo (and not use the 2 at the same time, that would confuse the results) then I see no problem with that. When it comes to heart conditions, then really, I'd go with modern medicine every time, I'm just not in a position to tackle that kind of issue.

What do YOU think?

posted by Emily @ 11:50

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Sunday 5th April 2009

New therapies from old medicines

This is a very brief summary of the above entitled review by Chen, ST et al from Nature Biotechnology 26:1077 (2008). The first botanical drug was approved by the FDA on 2006 called Veregen (sinecatechins – believed to be the main therapeutic component) since new regulations were brought out in 2004. Veregen is a topical treatment for peri-anal and genital warts and is an extract of green tea leaves. An important point is that the FDA considers that such drugs can meet the necessary quality control and clinical testing standards that are required for non-botanical drugs, that is, conventional drugs. So what is the definition of a botanical drug? Firstly ‘simple’ botanical drugs are derived from a single part of a single plant type i.e. Veregen is derived from the leaves of the tea plant. Secondly, there are ‘combination’ botanical drugs which may consist of combinations of materials from (i) multiple parts from the same plant type or (ii) different / same parts from many plant types. The FDA requirements for Veregan approval included: 1. All future batches must be made from the same cultivar and come from the same farm that produced the clinical trial material (any deviations from this requires approval from the FDA); 2. Any molecules of unknown identity present in the extract must always be replicated in ongoing quality control of the drug to maintain consistency. 3. Even though green tea is widely used as a beverage, this factor was only ‘marginally relevant to the safety and effective use of Veregan’; 4. Veregan had to show the ability to completely clear warts in the clinical trials. (NB: This is all US based information, as for UK/EU rules I’m not sure).

posted by PNS Fan @ 22:33

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Sunday 5th April 2009

My take on GYOD and botanical drugs

Well, so far I have watched a couple of episodes of GYOD on iplayer. Whilst I agree that the programme is presented in a responsible manner in terms of warning that these are not clinical trials, doing test-patches, pregnant women (senna) and I noted in the listings that they used medical and pharmaceutical advisors whilst making the series. From the ‘remedies’ that I have observed so far, my own personal opinion is that I wouldn’t envisage any danger in giving them a go in a responsible manner. However, for me in the ideal world using plants as drugs would have to be done in a scientific/medical manner (and this costs more money). This would entail determining the molecule(s) that is causing the therapeutic effect in the extract and then in this case this molecule(s) would become a conventional drug if approved. I struggle with the idea of licensed drugs containing unknown entities, as is the case with botanical drugs. So where do we draw the line? Well, if there was no alternative then I would definitely try it but if there was alternative conventional drugs with a similar efficacy and safety record then I do not think that a botanical drug should be licensed along side it. My ideal would be that further research should be carried out on the botanical drug to determine the specific active ingredient thus removing all the unnecessary unknowns from the equation, test the active ingredient in a clinical trial and if successful classify it as a conventional drug. For example, active ingredients from broccoli and liquorice have recently been extracted and shown to have anti-melanoma and anti-colon cancer properties, respectively, and I think that this is the correct way forward. Also, an important distinction between GYOD and FDA regulations is that the FDA do not automatically assume that because green tea is a common beverage then it is ‘safe’ whereas it seems that GYOD advocates that if we eat something then it is safe to use for other purposes – well this is how I interpret what I have seen so far. Therefore, the jury is out on this one for me.

posted by PNS Fan @ 22:38

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Tuesday 7th April 2009

Interesting

Your background does give you quite a unique take on the ideas he's coming up with and I have to say that, despite my early attraction to his ideas, I do understand where you're coming from too. It is sensible to have controlled dosages to treat specific issues and without the kinds of measures you're talking about, it's just not possible is it? I also have to say that I missed the most recent programme (in London, did I mention that much?) but have heard that he made an eye gel with peppermint - OUCH! I'll have to watch it for myself to see what was going on there, but that's just wrong on so many levels. So I'm not sure if my early enthusiasm will be carried on, but I still like some of the core ideas. That we can make some products for ourselves that are effective and helpful. That we should be looking at a number of alternatives alongside modern medicines. That traditional treatments weren't all hocus-pocus or snake oils. I do like to think that sometimes, Granny really did know best. But you're right, we've moved on in leaps and bounds in our understanding of the natural world in the last 50 years and we're now in the position to thoroughly test out Granny's theories and prove what was right and what isn't actually all that useful. It's not romantic, but it's good sense (and, forgive me, good science) isn't it?

posted by Emily @ 18:03

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Wednesday 8th April 2009

Thoughts

Whilst I agree wholeheartedley with PNSFan regarding the FDA stuff and licencing it should be noted that many drugs on the market have indeed been through the aforementioned process. Granted that many of them have since deviated from their "natural" structures to improve efficacy still further. I think the bigger point for me is that they always use "packing" compounds in the formulation. I am sure that the safety of these has been extremely well tested but I really like the idea of getting the active ingredient in it's natural formulation. There would be no way to mass market the GYOD formulations for the reasons stated by PNSFan, but the fun of making your own remedies and using them responsibly does really appeal. I have to say also that the peppermint in the eye gel may indeed be a little too cooling for me to try, however the program for me has not really been about the beauty treatments.

posted by heleng @ 11:57

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Wednesday 8th April 2009

A very important point...

Yes, I know where you are coming from, Helen. It would make sense to determine whether any of these HPLC peaks that represent unknown entities in the overall extract are working synergistically with the active ingredient. After all, it would make sense in terms of evolution that the microenviroment of the active ingredient within the plant may contain molecules that assist its function in some way - either by making it function better or even protecting it e.g. acting as a buffer to maintain the integrity of the structure of the active ingredient. Then may be such molecules (if proved safe) could be incorporated into the overall final drug to give increased overall efficacy. But it would be a huge task and would cost lots of money. May be this sort of thing is being looked at anyway - I really don't know.Talking of bulking agents though, if you remember a while back, I mentioned that my ibuprofen contained SLS (to my horror) and you said that it could be used as a bulking agent. So I think that you have made a very important point.

posted by PNS Fan @ 14:21

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Monday 30th March 2009

Safety

I agree that if you have a proper diagnosis from a qualified doctor and they agree that the ailment is fine to try to treat "naturally" (i.e. not life threatening) then it is fine to try out remedies. However as clearly stated in the program you should always test first and really get your doctor to monitor the condition. Most drug targets are derived from nature, however I would not suggest believing everything you read however as I once read an article that said HIV and cancer could be cured by the use of a sauna!! Maybe that was me misreading but hey!! I believe that the remedies in this program ought to be good or at worst not harmful as they are prepared with knowledge of the EXACT plant and its properties. I also have a lot of faith in the presenter as he always states the stuff about testing/not clinical trial/get GP diagnosis/make sure you have the right plant/extract.

posted by Helen G @ 16:16

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Tuesday 31st March 2009

Common sense isn't actually all that common is it?

You're right, all these things require a lot of value judgements and a bit of investigation, there's no point asking a lavender plant to cure cancer for example. And there are a lot of charlatans out there selling snake oil to the desperate and that's not only appalling on a moral level, it's a manifestation of awful greed. This is another personal soap box of mine - companies selling potions that promise to make you look younger when it patently can't, but that's another subject...

But there are real benefits to be had from taking some of the old remedies and trying them out alongside modern medicine. It's about reducing the amount of stress we get from outside sources and helping the body to heal itself. And best of all, there's the added benefit of making sure that we get the best out of the modern medicines we do use, because we use them less often.

He does have a sensible approach on the programme though, I agree, he stresses the importance of including a doctor in the decision making process and that these aren't clinical trials. I think it's more about opening people up to the idea that traditional medicines do have something to offer, we've been trained for so long to trust the men in white coats that we're in danger of losing the alternatives, he's just on the other side of the scale, which is a good thing.

posted by Emily @ 11:01

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